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Wednesday, November 9, 2011

Issue 2 fails: Ohio goes deeper in the toilet

Yesterday, Ohio voters defeated a measure that would stop collective bargaining for Ohio unions.  It is a shame that people don't understand the serious implications here.

Because of collective bargaining, state governments all over the (northern) United States are going broke.  They have simply promised more than they can provide.  The "Collective" citizens, who are so selfish that they demand excesses in compensation that they don't earn, have just killed the goose that lays the golden eggs.  I hope they're quite happy with themselves.

In previous discussions, mostly with union member Johnny O'Bloggin, I have attempted to explain how economies work.  In order for an economy to work, the workers in that economy must produce a product that HAS VALUE in other economies.  If that product doesn't sell, no money will come in.  The governments, local, state and federal, don't generate any income by paying their employees, so the governments must tax their constituents to raise funds for paying the government employees.  And the government can only tax as much as we the people allow them to.

It is sad to see the LIV's be totally manipulated by the P.I.L.E.'s.  But I promise you that 99% of the Ohio voters who opposed Issue 2 were only doing so because their union leadership told them to.  My mama used to call that cutting off your nose to spite your face.


  1. Tenth,

    What is truly stunning is that the very same electorate moved to the very next issue on the ballot and voted overwhelmingly to resist Obamacare.

    I think that a part of this problem is the way it continues to be marketed as a "right" - which it is not.

  2. Common Snse nailed it. The Left whined their usual whine about losing cops, firemen, etc, and said NOTHING about FIRST CUTTING the ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS!

  3. I was not happy when I heard this this morning. Too many uninformed/ignorant drones pulling levers.
    With the dumbing down of our youth going on in Public Education this will only get worse.
    Sadly, it's another nail in the coffin but, got to keep up the fight regardless.

  4. But I promise you that 99% of the Ohio voters who opposed Issue 2 were only doing so because their union leadership told them to. My mama used to call that cutting off your nose to spite your face.

    You promise???

    Tenth, you are so wrong here that it is pathetic. In your Alternate Universe what you said makes sense to you and your posse here. However, in the Real Universe where the rest of America lives, you are terribly wrong.

    Should I go on or do you and the posse want to whip me before I begin to lay out the truth for you?

    I'm waiting...

  5. Mud,

    Provide facts and use logic. All you do is scream like a two year old.

    The government cannot afford to pay for all the crap it has promised. That doesn't make them right, or the unions wrong. It means that sooner or later, the government will cease to function and anarchy will emerge. If you don't want to see anarchy, let the government out of the stupid promises the unions coerced them into making.

    I am fine with anarchy, because I will be able to protect me and mine. I will be too busy doing that, though, to provide you and yours with any help. So be real careful what you wish for.

  6. Tenth said, But I promise you that 99% of the Ohio voters who opposed Issue 2 were only doing so because their union leadership told them to.

    This is false. You need to read CS's comment above to understand that 2 issues were on the Ohio ballot and both received +60% of the votes.

    One was Issue 2, the SB5 law, the anti-collective bargaining measure. A person needed to vote NO on that to repeal it.

    The other was Issue 3 which was the anti-mandated health care provision of the Obama Health Care Law. A person needed to vote YES on that one.

    Both the NO and the YES received +60%. Tell me, Tenth, how did 99% of the Ohio voters who opposed Issue 2 were only doing so because their union leadership?

    Did this same 99% vote AGAINST the Obama proposal?

    You see, Tenth, your view of politics is way-too simplistic to have very much validity. You are clearly way-too reactionary to have any worth in the political arena.

    Of course, your reactionary characteristic is not your fault. You have been pimped by the right-wing media into 'believing' all of the shit that they feed you.

    You seem to be, sad to say, one of those LIV's that you spoke about above. Seriously, I know that this is very difficult for you to accept, but this post- what you said above- places you in the LIV category.

    You and the posse can deride me all you want, but neither you nor theycan have your own set of facts- a set that does not pass the truth test.

    You need to get more information on topics before you post them. Maybe you should just stick to denouncing Obama; that seems to be a very popular idea among right-wing bloggers.

  7. Maybe you should be ankle deep in shit - while standing on your head. If your liberal weenie union crybaby brethren get their way, the government of Ohio will fail. Period.

  8. I live in Ohio and Issue 2 looked like killing a fly with a sledge hammer. Not all the unions are bad, but the ones that are bad are really bad. What I'm going to write might upset some people, but I think it's just a difference in philosophies.

    I worked in management at a very large company. We had more than one plant and our product had a very short shelf life, so we needed daily deliveries to the retail outlets selling our products. The Teamsters changed their contract and used some sort of math that made 9 - 7 = 9. We figured it equaled 2. Normally we would meet union officials in a conference room but they insisted on meeting at a table within view of the loading docks. Two guys showed up looking like something out of the Sopranos. We pointed out the error of their math. They replied (with a straight face) something like "If you don't give us what we want, we'll shut you down today". Everyday our trucks were idle (and the plants shut down), it would cost the company over a million dollars. Paying them off would cost less than $500,000 and of course they knew this. We settled to their terms.

    The City of Toledo, Ohio is running in the red (8 million and counting) and if something doesn't change, it will actually shut down.

    Now we come to the Teamsters that ran the refuse trucks. Toledo got new trucks that were more efficient. The Teamsters said that because the City was saving money, they (the Teamsters) should get more money. Then the City privatized refuse collection (even though we still pay city taxes for pickup) and the City put the displaced Teamsters in other departments. They still are Teamsters members with the same contract and the same pay. Wow, big savings.

    Then you got the Toledo Police Force. How much is a cop worth? You decide (50 thousand a year, 90 thousand a year or maybe 150 thousand a year). How much are you worth and how much do you make a year? Don't forget that generous benefit packages should be included in the costs. Because of a severe shortage in City collected revenue, over a fourth of the police force was laid off. Because layoffs, by contract, have to be made purely based on seniority, most of the layoffs were cops working 2nd and 3rd shifts. To cover the city, cops working 1st shift were reassigned to the other shifts. They filed a grievance and the arbitrator gave them time and a half for working a shift other then their usual 1st shift.

    Now about those benefits. The Toledo Newspaper reported that the city was picking up 8.5 points of their pension. What that really means is that for every $100 the cop earns (including full overtime amounts), the City will pay $18.50 additional into their pension fund (your private employer pays only $6.20) while the cops only contributes $1.50. And remember, this cop probably claims the full personal deduction on his Federal Income Tax that would include any medical costs or charity donations. Kind of like taking a double tax-free deduction. And medical benefits? Try 5% or less (also included in personal tax deduction). The TV ads claimed "all union members pay a portions of medical coverage (ya, 5% or less) and many (how many is many?) pay a portion of their pension.

    They had on this old lady claiming firemen saved her great-grand daughter because of minimum staffing. How ya gonna maintain minimum staffing when you can't pay 'em. They won't work for free. And try to name any successful business where the employees make the business decisions, not the bosses. And don't we elect the people we want to be the boss.

    Sorry if I offended anyone, but these are all true facts and that's how "I" see it. Of course my spouse is a teacher and doesn't agree with me.

    I was talking to a shool union official, who was brought in from out of state to help fight issue 2, who said that claims of layoffs if the issue failed would result in layoffs were unfounded. Haven't the layoffs been happening for several years now?

  9. Jeff,

    I tend to agree with you on this issue. Selfishness and extortion are the only reason these thugs are making all this money. It is disgusting, and I contend it couldn't happen in a right to work state.

    Collective bargaining is the same as strong arm robbery, and it should be illegal.

  10. Jeff, I agree with you on that one.

    My axe to grind with the issue 2 drama is that the truth was so clouded by union propaganda that unless you actually took the time to sift through the bill to find the truth which those 99% TGP mentioned probably didn't.

    It was a bill that pertained only to public sector unions.

    The unions as a whole portrayed issue 2 as eliminating ALL unions period.
    I also enjoyed their radio ads that tried to scare old people (the left's favorite people to scare) by telling them that if issue 2 passes, the police won't have the manpower to respond to 911 calls from seniors!
    Typical and tacky.

    What the bill would have done is forced state workers to contribute towards their own benefits and retirement package and, give people a choice to join a union as opposed to it being a mandate.
    The union's other complaint was that the state would no longer be sending union dues directly to the unions and it would be the member's responsibility to pay their dues themselves...if they remember to.

    The problem is that Ohio has a finite number of workers who pay into the tax coffers.
    When the money isn't there to pay workers, they get laid off.
    That isn't politics, it's reality.

    You can put all the minimum staffing rules into any contract but, when the money is gone, the worker who's department isn't regulated by staffing rules will be the first one out the door but, the unions for some crazy reason forgot to mention that in their ads.

    So it boils down to this, the state has no money.

    Issue 2 would have saved the state money by having state union employees contribute towards their own costs which would result in people keeping their jobs or, at least less of them being laid off.

    The unions have pretty much just voted union jobs away for their junior membership so that their senior members don't have to pay 8 cents on the dollar toward their own retirements.

    I'm no math whiz but, I would think that in keeping more union members employed, the union would reap the benefit of more members who are paying dues.

    We'll see what happens.

  11. Tenth,

    Notice how when you back Mud_PILE into a corner and demand facts, he responds with insults. Since you refuse to buy in to the destructive policies of the left - it's your intellect that's in question and not his.

    Hell - NW Ohio is on our side on this one. Virginia is a right to work state run by Republicans - we had budget surpluses last year and this year now that we got rid of the idiot that was our Governor (Time Kaine) and coincidentally head of the DNC. With Kaine in charge we were facing a $6 Billion deficit but with Bob McDonnell in charge we now have $1 BILLION in surplus over two years.

    It's nice to have adults in charge.

  12. The left's destructive policies may just come back and bite them in the ass this time.
    It's amazing that they have no capacity whatsoever to look down the road and see where things lead and little or, no idea of the concept of cause and effect.

    They were dancing in the streets when issue 2 went down and, may later on be begging in the streets when the layoffs begin.

    Then again, the state unions will either have to make healthcare and retirement concessions or, toss their lower ranks under a bus. At least they won't be able to blame anyone but, if they'd ever do that!

  13. TGP- You may have a point in regards to the economy. But, policemen, firemen, and teachers provide a very valuable service. And they have every right to be organized if they choose to be.

    Now, I can not comment intelligently on Issue 2.
    Illinois politicians have been trying to force teachers into longer school days without a raise in pay. Especially in Chicago, where state test scores are disgustingly low. The Union, of course, has been fighting it.

    The problem isn't the teachers. The unspoken problem, that no politician wants to mention, is the fact, that most of these kids have parents who use the school system, as free daycare. Either out of necessity, for having to work 2-3 jobs. Or, they're just pieces of shit, who had kids, for that extra bump in their welfare checks. Either way, noone wants to get to the root of the problem.

    Instead of blaimimg the Unions. First try getting to the bottom of the wasteful spending your state might be participating in.

    As for Obamacare. I beleive their are some major flaws in our current system. BUT, I would never vote for Obamacare. I pay $9.20/hr for my coverage. Under his plan, I would not have the ability to opt out of my union coverage. And to tell you the truth, I don't beleive Obama when he says my taxes would not be affected. I think they would have to go up. So I continue paying the high rate I pay now, without the ability to opt out, and my taxes go up. No thank you.

  14. Johnny,

    Issue 2 didn't abolish state unions, it, for the most part was going to force them into picking up some of it's own costs and remove some expense from the state budget while putting retirement and benefits closer to the private sector's standard.
    The state employees have 100% taxpayer funded benefits and retirement packages and, are given mandatory raises no matter what kind of shitbag employee they are in a state that can no longer afford that stuff.

    I find it odd that the democrats are always bawling about "shared sacrifice" until a union is asked for a little...then it's "unfair".

    The state can only afford "X" amount of employees when it takes in "Y" in tax dollars.
    So there is going to be a finite number of state workers that are paid for by a finite number of taxpayers period.
    Raising taxes in our current economy would be madness (which is why the Dems seem to love the idea) and laying off workers is the leftover option since the state's unions rejected the idea of offsetting costs via co-paying.

    As for our health system, sure it could use repairs but, replacing the entire thing with a rushed through (for historic purposes) piece of shit like Obamacare was just plain dumb.
    I felt that the existing programs eligibility guidelines could have been altered to cover those who needed insurance as opposed to the government needlessly altering everyone's coverage and, filling the law with so much cloak and dagger crap that it's Soviet in appearrance.
    And for something that was supposed to cost nothing, it's already cost people via higher premiums (mine went up 1/4 for next year) and, in some cases their jobs because the companies can't afford to cover them.

    We're losing our country because the government has been taken over by the government.

  15. I was born and raised in Ohio and lived there all my life until 4 years ago.

    It saddened me that the people of Ohio fell for the sob story from the unions. That is my thoughts on what happened. The unions outspent Kasich 4 to 1 I read on ads. They used the usual tactics of scaring people into believing their would be no cops, no firemen, no teachers.

    The people fell for it. Too bad.

    Before I left Ohio 65 people per day were leaving the state. Now, I imagine that will continue as jobs go by the wayside. What a terrible shame.

    I hate to see this happen to my home state.

    btw, I wonder how the rake gets itself out of its' mud hole all the time. However, it does seem to be stuck in the mud on a one note monologue.

  16. Johnny,

    Please note the size and scope of your local and State government. The problem isn't paying cops, fire fighters, and teachers (though salaries have ballooned all out of proportion from their civilian counter parts) rather it is the army of bureaucrats sitting behind them. Forty percent of our local school budget gets spent outside the classroom. It's excess infrastructure and waste.

    There are thousands of city, county and other employees who provide little value that could be let go long before you reach the first cop, fire fighter, or teacher. Check your local government - you will find it is bloated and there are departments and agencies that you are completely in the dark about.

  17. So Tenth, I guess that you do not think that your statement was wrong- the one about the 99% of the votes were from union members.

    Are you ever wrong?

    Then, it was humorous in a dark way, of course, that you chided me, All you do is scream like a two year old.

    And what did you do?? Scream like a 2-year-old.

    Sorry that you right-wingers are getting so desperate and are so frustrated about the 2012 election. I can understand your pain. First it was Trump, then he fizzled with his birther nonsense.

    Then it was Bachmann who is pathetic at best. Then Perry who can't count to 3.

    Now you are stuck with Cain who will be going down before the end of this month.

    You are finished. The far-right wing has emptied its chest; there's no one left.

    Yesterday Charles Krauthammer gave you right-wingers some advice. Let me share his final paragraph [which began with the Ohio vote analysis]:

    So too across the nation, as we saw Tuesday. This is no disoriented, easily led citizenry. On the contrary. It is thoughtful and discriminating. For Republicans, this means there is no coasting to victory, 9 percent unemployment or not. They need substance. They need an articulate candidate with an agenda and command of the issues who is light on slogans and lighter still on baggage.

    Doesn't sound like Herman Cain to me.

    ...sorry about that

  18. Pepperhawk,
    Some of the propaganda the unions were spouting was so outlandish it's amazing that people actually believed it...but they did.

    "If issue 2 passes, seniors will be left with their 9-1-1 calls going unanswered and unprotected by the police!"

    Really? 9-1-1 is going to ask the ages of the callers?
    People believed it.

    I do recall back in 1980 the same rhetoric being said about Reagan vs Carter which turned into a landslide win.

    The actual race hasn't even begun yet although the mudslinging has.

    I wouldn't discount America's irritation with the Obama administration.
    His record spending and debt accumluation, the joblessness, Obamacare, the credit downgrade, the arms trafficking scandal, the phony green energy company scandals, the economy, the gas prices, the gaffs, the golfing, the pontificating, the backroom deals, the secrecy and the outright lies will probably become major issues and obsticals.

    And, since he (and other dems) have attatched himself to the Occupy Wall st crowd, he's going to have a hard time explaining why he supports those scumbags who are walking the streets demanding socialism while destroying public property within their "OBAMAVILLE" encampments.

    Going onstage and reading "Hope and change" from the teleprompter to a gaggle of sheep isn't going to cut it for him this time around and since his record is something to avoid, it's a mystery as to what he'll use as a platform to run on since his current plan is failing miserably.

  19. Mud_PILE,

    I can't wait to see what you say on Wednesday November 7, 2012. I can't wait. Since you can't be bothered by history, you won't see this wave coming.

    Do yourself a favor, check out the election cycles in 1968,70,72 and then again in 1980,82,84. You are about to experience another one of those waves. It started in 2010, you have two more wave elections to live through.

    Stand by Mud_PILE - as I have said before, the only way a Democrat (Socialist, Progressive, Liberal, whatever) will get into the White House for the next 12-16 years will be at the express invitation of the Republican President.

  20. Sepp- If that is the case, then their will not be much sympathy from union brithers and sisters here in Chicago. Their was not much support for the Wisconsin "Public" unions. In Illinois, I have never heard of any union, whose members have their pentions fully funded by anyone. My pension is fully funded by me. Even Chicago Police, and Fireman pay into their pension. The only problem is, once you give something up, you'll never get it back. Plus management will only want to take more away from you.

    CS- That's the exact point I was trying too make. My wife works as a Supervisor for the communications center, for the second largest county in the U.S... She makes $15,000 a year less than the receptionist of a County board member. That's sick!

  21. Johnny,

    The problem is not so much whether unions are good or bad (their effect is disastrous over time) but they have turned the public sector completely upside down vs the private sector (the one that pays all of the bills).

    Just a sampling of articles in a Google search of "Public vs Private sector salaries":

    USA Today:

    Ohio Business Round table:

    CATO Inst:

    As an aside, when you add "CATO" to the search the articles go back to 2006 trumpeting the imbalance.

    Further, the union doesn't compete in the government against management - they are at war with "We the people." Government doesn't deal well with unions and we all get screwed in the end.

    Unions have destroyed the industries they attached themselves to like leeches and now they are doing the same to our various levels of government. The union membership rate for public sector workers (36.2 percent) is substantially higher than the rate for private sector workers (6.9 percent).

    Why is that?

    The government and unions are a perfectly evil paring.

  22. Johnny,
    Ohio public union employee's health and retirement is 100% paid for by the taxpayer.
    The problem is that Ohio has been losing jobs and, it's tax paying population for quite some time now.

    So, they got their way on issue 2 and won't have to worry about paying 8 cents on the dollar to themselves or, an insurance co-pay but, will likely be tossing some members under the bus to pay for much for the "shared sacrifice" the dems keep babbling about!

    The other problem with these unions is that the democrats will offer them anything in order to get union support.
    They get a democrat elected and, the democrat appoints another democrat to negotiate their labor contracts with the state which is an obvious conflict of interest.

    At one time, unions goals were fair wages, fair hours and, a safe place to do your job.
    Now the only thing the unions are doing is pricing themselves out of the labor market and, chasing their own jobs away overseas.

    On another note, Ohio is expected to put a proposal on the ballot to be a right to work state in 2012.

    I can only guess what kind of doomsday propaganda will be filling the airwaves then.

  23. So, Tenth, were you WRONG about the 99% union votes in Ohio? Why can't you admit it when you are wrong? Are you always right?

  24. TGP- for fuck sake. Will you just admit that you are wrong with your numbers. Just remember one thing brother. The sign of a great man is too admit when he is wrong, or made a mistake.
    OH, wait. Mud couldn't admit that Clinton comitted pergury. I guess that's a glowing reflection of his greatness.

    Sepp- I agree that concessions need to be made under current circumstances. But, union officials may be concerned with an outcry to get rid of the Unions, which is obviously the case in Ohio. Or, so they thought. The throat cutting that will start appearing in these unions are inevitable.
    At a union meeting in '04, I stood up and proclaimed, it will not be the Republicans that get rid of our union. It will be us, by our own hand. The problem with unions now, is that there is no brotherhood, or solidarity anymore. Guys will sell there own wives to ensure that they continue working. It's pathetic, and disturbing.
    I still think greed had alot to do with jobs going overseas.
    The "public" unions, I will admit are alot trickier. They are 100% funded by the tax-payer. I understand that, and you have every right to voice your opinion.
    But I still think your state should look into some wasteful spending, before it trys to take some union rights away. I'm sure the wasteful spending is there. It's everywhere.

  25. Johnny,

    I have no problem admitting I'm wrong - when I'm wrong. I believe unions and specifically collective bargaining is wrong, and its detrimental to economic success. I've written enough paychecks to know when I'm getting fair work for fair pay, and I definitely don't see it in the public employees. You private guys are a little different, but you admit to paying $9.20/hr for healthcare. Johnny, that's $368/week, or $1472/month, or, get this $$19,136/year. Holy Fuck! I would love that to be my gross pay right now. You're getting ripped off, and so is the guy paying you.

  26. Tenth,

    Personally I would ignore Mud_PILE. I pointed out the only time he has ever been right the other day. He has never admitted when he was wrong, he just disappears off the thread.

    Besides, you're not wrong, you were just exaggerating a bit.

    As for Ohio Issue #2 - the Unions spent over $30 million to defeat that measure (the pro-Issue #2 folks raised $7.6 million). They could do that in an off-year election, they won't be able to do that next year when they have to defend in all 50 States.